Saturday, December 4, 2010

Vegan Health Failures

I'm copying and pasting these stories from a 2007 post called "Dealing with Ex-Vegans" at vegblog these are from the comments from his really silly post IMO. Anyway I'm keeping this here for posterity and research.

1.
  1. groundhog

    Hello…

    Just like to add my own story here…after years of reading about what might be the perfect diet for humans, and short experiments with such things as macrobiotics, and just plain old vegetarianism, I was very healthy, but constantly reading about health and diet and finally fell into veganism. A few months after that, began eating according to Dr. McDougall’s plan. Right away, my daughter’s ibs improved dramatically, and we were all encouraged. But also right away, I began having similar symptoms to ibs, for the first time in my life. Other McDougallers said this was normal after switching from SAD to McDougalling, just temporary, etc., so I ignored it. Even though the thought never occurred to me that I’d never experienced this with other experiments in diet that I’d tried out previously. Time went along, life was busy, and I got used to ignoring my symptoms, which became worse and worse over the years. By the 10th year of McDougalling (my only McDougall slip-ups were that I never quit coffee for more than a few months at a time, and we would eat out, about once every two or three months, in either Japanese or Indian restaurants, and have vegan dishes with oil added…we ordered a vegan pizza now and then too, but the place where we got that was not into using much oil, so it was much lower fat if it was vegan)– I was 100% vegan for over 10 years, and 99% oil free during that time. My health got so terrible, and I had gotten so used to just ignoring, even denying my problems, and finally it came to the point where I HAD to figure out what was wrong…I was sick each and every day…BAD sick, and looked terrible too. I was starving and eating tons and tons of food each day, thinking this is what McDougall said to do.

    After lots of digging and trial and error, and reading over discussion boards of celiac organizations, I discovered, through a lot of difficulty and a lot of TIME, that apparently for me, all of the bread, pasta, grainy foods I was eating abundantly in place of the stuff I’d dropped from my diet had instigated either a gluten intolerance or full-blown celiac disease. It took me 18 months to get back to anywhere near normal, and along the way, during the healing of my chewed up intestines, I became intolerant to some other foods.

    This idea, of gluten intolerance or other carbohydrate intolerance, lectin intolerance, etc., doesn’t seem to go over well in discussion with most other cooked vegans. The raw folks are quite open to the idea; however, my attempts at being raw have all been failures. Now I eat fish, lots of fish, becuase I can’t eat soy anymore. Corn is questionable in small amounts. I took up eggs to have somethign to eat, and now seem to have on and off intolerance of them too.

    I feel the McDougall diet screwed up my body. I’ve seen others on his message board with things like ulcerative colitis, different autoimmune diseases, diabetes, etc., who didn’t seem to be doing well with either the gluten or other starches or lectins in the legumes, etc. They are usually treated as just not following the rules…there is big denial going on there, and they either get worse by sticking ever more strictly to ridiculously limited forms of the diet, or they disappear from the board.

    This is my story of veganism…not only didn’t work for me, but turned me from a healthy person to a sicko. I don’t wanna be militant or angry, but it’s hard to be happy about it. I would have liked hearing a litte bit of warning that so much grain could possibly harm some people…maybe I would have listened to it. I remember my old SAD days of eating, when I was healthy,
    happy, and even skinny, and could eat and enjoy whatever I wanted…they’re gone forever now, because I can never eat
    anything with gluten in it ever again, and have to be extremely careful about what I eat, have to watch out for other intolerances that tend to pop up out of nowhere, etc. Starch-based veganism is obviously not for everyone…too bad most people find that out after the fact. Now, in addition to having to be careful about my food selection, I also have to wrangle with my own ethical issues over eating fish, but havne’t found out another way to just have enough to eat.

Carla My experience as a raw vegan (9 months)

The Good:
Lost weight (down to a 4/6), improved digestion (for a few months)

The Bad:
BAD mood all of the time, no matter what I ate. Very heavy and extremely painful periods within a month of starting that diet, long cycles.

The Ugly:
Gray teeth (and they are still gray ), hair falling out, increased hypothyroidism, more estrogen dominance, increased ovarian cysts, horribly depressed in the last two months. The teeth part is frustrating because I was blessed with naturally white, straight (w/o braces) teeth and now I can hardly smile because I cant get used to gray, dingy teeth. Now I’m worried about the health of my teeth overall.

That doesn’t make the “good” part sound so good. I broke that cycle when I had salmon and brown rice for Thanksgiving.

Now I eat a diet of humanly raised, grass fed beef, chicken, limited fruits, lots of vegetables and plenty of fats (raw butter, coconut oil) and fermented foods and beverages. I have not gone back to eating grains because of my compromised digestion and gluten intolerance.

I have never been better health wise in my entire life. I’m not longer horribly depressed and suicidal, my weight is still down, I have normal cycles, my thyroid levels are normal, no more ovarian cysts, etc and have tons of energy.

My brother on the other hand, has been vegan for the past 15 years and have done very well. Different strokes for different folks and we should accept that no particular diet works for everyone.

  1. ExVegan#1921892329 permalink

    I am an ex vegan. I was vegan for 16 years, had two vegan pregnancies and finally last year I threw in the towel. My oldest child had rotting teeth and my younger had a few cavities so I completely changed their diets. I added in raw milk and raw cheese, local eggs and sometimes fish. My youngest child’s decay has stopped! My children are healthier and happier! They never did get THAT sick, but now they NEVER get sick! I am so relieved. I was a hard core vegan too! I never thought it would come to this, but my children mean more to me than a special diet. I myself have only eaten eggs and dairy in things. I haven’t brought myself to eat meat yet. It’s a long process, and my mind is having to be completely trained to think differently than I have for half my life. I wish I had never gone vegan in the first place! The first years of the diet I was so malnourished because I didn’t know what I was doing. Things got better, but I’ve never felt normal. I have always needed excessive amounts of sleep. I have always supplemented with B12 too.

  2. ExVegan#1921892329 permalink

    I just wanted to add, that it’s not just my ex vegan children with the tooth decay. Naomi Aldort has worked with tons of vegan families and said most if not all of them have tooth decay! http://mothering.com/health/child-refuses-healthy-food
    This is a serious concern. When I was researching what to do about my children’s teeth and about vegan children, I found more and more vegan children with decay. I found fully grown people who had been raised vegan and raw who have now had children with rotten mouthfuls of teeth! I used to think I had the supreme diet and that I was feeding my children the supreme, life giving diet. Boy was I brainwashed. If you are vegan and considering pregnancy, please think about using animal products at least while pregnant and breastfeeding. Raw milk and local eggs are highly nutritious. You don’t even have to eat loads of it! You can just add a bit in to cover your bases. You might feel better too.


    Ex-Vegan permalink

    After having been vegan for almost ten years I can say with more experience than most vegans that, for a lot of people, this lifestyle choice is dangerous. I used to be one of those brainwashed people who scoffed at those who couldn’t remain vegan, saying they were ‘lazy’, ‘doing it wrong’ or were ‘junk food vegans’.

    There may be situations where people can thrive on veganism, and I’ll never discount that. I do, however, now strongly believe they are exceptions.

    I almost died because I was vegan.

    There’s no more and no less to that story. I don’t want to get into specifics, because it’s a lot of pain and anguish but in the end I had to begin consuming animal products again. I wasn’t a junk food vegan. I ate very, very well and took supplements. My health went severely downhill after about six years.

    I already expect most vegans to take it harshly. It’s like a personal attack on their diet choices, and in some ways it is. Being vegan is dangerous to some, and the dangers of it need to be addressed and clearly stated to those who are considering beginning the diet.


The China Study is Misguided and there is no One Diet to Rule them All

I keep on saying I don't have time to write, but I can't stop writing. So I'm going to go for it as I can.

I became vegan in January of 2005, ironically the same month and year that The China Study hit the shelves. Here's a short version of my becoming a vegetarian and ultimately a vegan, which was not via the health, ethics, or guilt route. I only heard of the China Study from the Vegan RD in the Florida Voices for Animals about 2 months later:

This has been published on a veg blog, but I did a little editing. ( I just googled myself):

I had two A-Ha moments. In 1987, I read that a certain ethnic group was eating cats in St. Petersburg, Florida. There and then, I stopped eating anyone with eyes. I was the only vegetarian in my family and didn't know anything about PETA or any organizations. I was in my little bubble. Then 18 years passed and I went for a chunk of cheddar. I had not heard the term vegan before, but knew about strict vegetarianism and thought that it was extreme. I had a thought, "I wonder how the cows are treated?" and the Universe answered shortly thereafter. By "coincidence" I met a vegan Buddhist soon after and then I met two AR activists who loaned me the movie Peaceable Kingdom. I saw the footage of the calf being removed from his mother and it felt like I was watching Roots or the Holocaust*. I couldn't do anything about Hitler, but I can stop eating dairy and eggs. I don't even think about it, like the taste buds for both products just vanished. That was 6 years ago. Since then my health has improved a lot. No more lumpy boobs, no more runny nose, barely any zits. At the moment of commitment, the universe conspires to assist you — Goethe


Soon after I wrote the above statement earlier last month, the shit hit the fan. I got my copy of the Vegan Outreach newsletter and that directed me to an interview with Jack Norris of Vegan Outreach by Rhys Southan, at LetThemEatMeat.com. Rhys is an ex-vegan who some current vegans believe to be hell bent on destroying veganism, or something like that. Actually, I think the guy is a truth seeker. He's funny as hell. He doesn't like organized religion and that's exactly what some parts of the vegan movement appears to be. Plus, he was really unhealthy on the vegan diet. He was lied to and that will make some people start a revolution of sorts!

After reading his story, Tasha's story, Chris Masterjohn's story, and lots of stories on Beyond Veg, Mothering.com, and meeting the tooth decayed kid with caps at the Thanksgiving Potluck, and and basically opening up my mind to listening to folks and realizing that my own mother couldn't hack it all the way, I woke up to realize something I wish I would have realized 5 years ago: there is no one diet to rule them all.

The vegan diet has done all right by me and many, many others, but some people it just doesn't work for and they have to be heard and not dismissed and be called spies for the evil empire or something like that. There's a myriad of reasons why vegans become ex-vegans, some could be that they were not so good at getting enough protein (yes, you do have to work harder at it, especially for dudes), some because their intestines are not optimally absorbing pro-vitamins and turning them into fat soluble vitamins, and many others reasons, perhaps genetics. One of the reasons is that many Vegan Guru MDs encourage low fat and that is WRONG WRONG WRONG! I've written or cobbled together a lot of information on why there is failure to thrive, so click around on the blog for the months of November and December 2010 in particular.

The China Study, I honestly don't know what to make of it. Rather than think it's some kind of vegan propaganda, it's more like being seriously misguided. Seriously. If you read my "Ex Vegan Essay" and the "Feeling Better after Eating Meat" post, you'll see more where I'm coming from.

I had excruciatingly painful and lumpy boobs and the pain and lumps went away when I stopped dairy, first the pain, then slowly the lumps went away. I've read and heard from others that their health improved a lot by removing dairy. That alone doesn't make the China Study worthy of being deemed the ultimate diet book for the entire planet, which many, many people think that it is. Perhaps it's just a diet book for Chinese people, or certain people with certain genetic constitutions. I'm serious. We are all different and adaptable to different diets, but we are all not the descendants of people who eat more plants to meat ratio. So the Japanese thrive on their diet and the Inuits thrive on theirs. Provided they don't start incorporating any Western crap food, my bet is that they are just fine. If you read the articles I linked to earlier, that is the case. The Inuits on their high fat and cholesterol laden diet, provided they don't start eating modern high sugar, fructose corn syrup and neurotoxins like aspartame and other crap, they are at low CVD risk. Would they thrive on the Mediterranean diet? No they would not. They would need to adapt and also move to a similar climate, most likely.

When it's "common knowledge" that cholesterol is bad (which it is not) and the ratios of LDL/HDL and triglycerides are freaking confusing, most people, really like simple answers and want others to think for them. Others like doctors or books will do the trick. Never outsource your thinking.

Most, if not all, people yearn and search for external validation that what they are doing is the "right" thing. Being right is effing great. You don't actually have be right, you just simply think you are right and that is good enough. This is on all sides of the diet movement. Just because the Nourishing Traditions worked for you, it doesn't mean that it is the one diet to rule them all either. But seriously, isn't that the way it is with something so intimate such as diet or religion? Jesus is God to millions of people, they pray to Him, get inner and outer confirmation and feel happy. Telling them otherwise is not going to get you anywhere. They want all the people to share in their happiness and joy they get from a close personal relationship with Jesus. Telling them that people also pray to Buddha, or Allah, or my master, Meher Baba, and also feel the same way and get the same benefits, that would freak them out. They would cover their ears and start singing loudly, in a manner of speaking.

People want absolutes and having things be relative is confusing.

When the so called "one diet to rule them all" and its accompanying bible "The China Study" is shown on a deep personal level to not work for an individual, they are shaken to the core. The construct comes down and they have to build another one in order to eat, in order to function. A new form of ethics or reasoning comes in and is developed within that individual. And she will find sources "out there" to validate her new construct. People can't act against their own conscience, they have to build a new construct to operate or they can't operate at all.

I'll leave it at that for the time being.

*I think of animals as sentient beings and that doesn't diminish the status of human beings, but puts animals right up there with them. I would love to clone Donald Watson's herbivorous system and make everyone vegan, but that's not possible. So the word holocaust came to mind at that time in 2005 without any outside influences. Basically seeing that footage freaked me out. When I saw footage of the Jewish holocaust years and years ago, and read Ann Frank's Diary, I was depressed for months and constantly bitching at God. So that's how I am.

The One Diet to Rule them All Doesn't Exist

This was written by me on JackNorrisRD as a comment and I dig it so much, I'm pasting it here:

Many of the symptoms that ex-vegans have, besides B12, I think can be attributed to lack of fat or low fat and going raw and not getting iodine and also, I think, vitamin D and how that works with cholesterol, that some people need meat (or at least they think they do) and that is pretty much the same thing (thought and need). Plus, I also think we are all not clones of Donald Watson. We don’t have a magic 8 ball, a way of seeing how genetics plays a part and also whether or not these people have good gut bacteria and healthy intestines. There’s so many, many reasons why. When the China Study is touted as the Bible for the One Diet That Rules them All (which there is no such thing) and then when a vegan gets sick, their entire construct gets destroyed. It’s like their Guru (or Beloved Diet) has falling from grace. No joke. It’s a major mind (you know what). Anyway, I will be writing about it in the near future.

So instead of having vegan be synonymous with health, it needs to be better defined. And instead of it being synonymous with morality and ethics, both of which manifest in the mind, it needs to be synonymous with empathy and reduced suffering, not Jainism, purity, or some bunch of cultists.

The “vegans” throwing chili pie in the face of Lierre Keith in San Francisco made no points for animals, they actually caused more people to NEVER consider going vegan.

The Major Importance of Iodine in Vegan and Vegetarian Diets (and people who don't eat fish)

Since I don't have time to write a lot today or in the near future, here's some excerpts and links about the importance of iodine and giving yourself a cheap, home test. Scroll down to learn more about the home test, but read the entire page and research for yourself too. This is very quickly slapped together.

A study published in Sep-Oct 2003 Annals of Nutrition and Metabolism showed that 25% of the vegetarians, 80% of the vegans and 9% of those eating a mixed diet had low iodine status http://www.healthyeatingclub.org/info/articles/Minerals/iodine.htm

You only need a microscopic amount, but if you don't have it or you are eating raw broccoli, flax, SOY, and other veggies which deplete iodine levels, then you can feel fatigued, lose hair, not be able to sleep comfortably, have muscle weakness and more.

Do not go crazy with the iodine, read and learn. You only need a small amount. I suggest getting it from kelp. Once again: You only need small, microscopic amounts. DO NOT INGEST IODINE directly. That would be very dangerous, you could die or worse (suffering is worse than death). Click for some information about overdose. Think. Pause. Think some more.

From Vegan Health:
Iodine Antagonists

There are components in soy, flax seeds, and raw cruciferous vegetables (broccoli, brussels sprouts, cauliflower, and cabbage) that counteract iodine. These components, called goitrogens, cause an enlarged thyroid gland, also called a goiter. Thus, large amounts of soy combined with inadequate iodine intake can exacerbate iodine deficiency. http://www.veganhealth.org/articles/iodine
From Healthy Eating Club:
Iodine is found in seafood, iodised salt and some vegetables. It is important for essential hormone development in the human body. Inadequate intake of dietary iodine can lead to an enlarged thyroid gland (goitre) or other iodine deficiency disorders. Iodine deficiency is the world's leading cause of mental retardation in children. Iodine is found in seawater, so any type of seafood is a rich source of this element, particularly seaweed (e.g kelp). Despite coming from the ocean, sea salt is not a good source of iodine. Iodised salt is perhaps the most common source of iodine in the Western diet and can provide enough iodine to avoid low thyroid activity. Since an adult only requires around one teaspoonful of iodine over a lifetime, eating fish once a week is enough to fulfil the average iodine requirement.

Iodine is found in foods as iodide. Our bodies need it to make thyroid hormones. The thyroid is a gland in the throat that regulates many metabolic processes, such as growth and energy expenditure. The two main thyroid hormones, thyroxine and tri-iodothyronine, are synthesised from the amino acid, tyrosine, and from iodide.

The thyroid hormones regulate the body's metabolic rate and promote growth and development throughout the body, including the brain. If there isn't enough thyroid hormone circulating in the blood, the brain sends a chemical message to the thyroid gland, which then releases a measured dose of these hormones. If a person's diet is too low in iodine, the brain keeps sending chemical messages to the thyroid in vain. In an attempt to make more thyroid hormone, the gland gets larger and larger. This overgrowth of the thyroid gland is called a goitre.

Long term deficiency can be serious
An enlarged thyroid gland, or goitre, isn't the only side effect of inadequate iodine in the diet. Other symptoms include dry skin, hair loss, fatigue and slowed reflexes.

In the developing fetus, baby and young child, the effects of iodine deficiency are serious, including stunted growth, diminished intelligence and retardation. Lack of iodine is a major problem in developing countries and is considered to be the world's number one cause of preventable intellectual disability in children. Vegetarians may also be at risk of iodine deficiency if they do not eat seafood. Instead they can get their iodine from iodised table salt or seaweed. A study published in Sep-Oct 2003 Annals of Nutrition and Metabolism showed that 25% of the vegetarians, 80% of the vegans and 9% of those eating a mixed diet had low iodine status.

Iodine can be neutralised by certain foods
The value of dietary iodine can be reduced by vegetables from the brassica family, which includes cabbage, brussels sprouts, raw turnip, broccoli, and cauliflower. In circumstances where both large quantities of these foods are eaten and the levels of dietary iodine are marginal, goitre could develop.
Give yourself a cheap, home Iodine test to see if your levels are normal or too low

Why check your iodine levels?
Low iodine levels can zap your energy and make you feel tired, edgy and worn out. Low iodine levels can even prevent you from getting a good night's sleep. Before you go to your doctor with complaints of tossing and turning all night, aches and pains, and just feeling "blah," you may want to perform this self-test.

Because the symptoms of an iodine deficiency are classically identical to so many other illnesses (like depression, stress, chronic fatigue, or fibromyalgia,) many doctors either misdiagnose it or miss it completely and tell you there is nothing wrong.

Why are iodine levels so important?
Low levels of iodine mean your thyroid isn't functioning properly. The thyroid helps balance hormones, regulate heartbeats, stabilize cholesterol, maintain weight control, encourage muscle growth, keep menstrual cycles regular, provide energy, and even helps you keep a positive mental attitude.